Financial Literacy in the Era of Fintech

Speaker 2 

0:10

All right, welcome everybody. Really, really excited today for this edition of FuseBytes in that I'm normally by myself and I don't typically have a partner in crime so I'm very much excited to have a bit of a dais, bit of a team involved in this conversation. Why don't we go around and do a round of introductions? I think I've already Well, I'm already speaking to my teammate and Carol, why don't we start with you before we get to our guest?

S3

Speaker 3

0:37

Sure. So some of you know, I go by either Carol or Cee. I thought in the new century I needed a new name, just to be a forward kind of person. Anyhow. I thought Carol was too last century. So I prefer Cee today. And I've been with Fusemachines since 2015, I sort of a have to pinch myself when I realize it's been seven years. Before I joined Fusemachines, I most recently had my own business where I was with two partners running a brokerage firm. So I transitioned from the world of Finance to the world of AI and Tech and I've been very fortunate to have great team members like Umar and Lizzie, who's behind the scenes in our podcast productions, and learned a ton. So I'll interject other stuff as we go through the podcast, but I think that's a good intro for now.

S4

Speaker 4

1:39

Absolutely.

S1

Speaker 1

1:43

And I am Joel Brown Christensen. I have partnered up with Cee and we'll get into that exciting partnership. I co-founded ViableEdu back when COVID hit, April of 2020, and ViableEdu is a FinTech focused financial literacy platform, where we partner with firms and organizations to teach finance with a particular focus on fintech. So, thank you so much for having me and excited to have this conversation now.

S2

Speaker 2

2:10

Absolutely, I think this is going to be a fun one and without further ado I'll just dive right into this. Carol, maybe I'll direct this to you in terms of that initial relationship between Viable and Fusemachines. How did that happen? 

S4S3

Speaker 3

2:25

So, during COVID as you will remember, we were frozen, like we weren't allowed to go out and do things that we normally did. And I was a meet-up, junkie and pre COVID, I used to go to meetups two three times a week. So when COVID hit, I was like, oh my god, what am I going to do? And I was lucky enough to be introduced to some guys in the Midwest, actually one was in New York, one was in st. Louis and the other one was in Chicago and they realized that a lot of us meet up junkies needed an alternative. So they said look why don't we have a regular get together online where we bring beers, wine, whatever, juice, they don't care, and we just talk with people. Somehow I got invited to one of the first Funders and Founders events, and that kept me going all through COVID and at one of them Joel showed up, I don't know who invited you, but he just showed up and we had great. What we used to do in those events was maybe there'd be a presentation in the beginning but then would go into different breakout rooms and you'd get to know five or six people. And then you need to do that for 10-15 minutes and go to another breakout room. So you really got to talk in depth for a couple minutes to different people and we were in the same breakout room and that's how it happened. 

S2

Speaker 2

4:00

That makes sense. There was a world in which I used to go to … goodness … 3-5 in-person events in real life over here in Toronto and it seems like just beyond a lifetime ago. Shake hands with a roomful of 500 people. Yeah having said that I do hope to go back. We've dipped our toes back into that a little bit. That's wonderful. That dovetails perfectly into well, Joel, maybe, you can tell us a little bit about Viable. The reason you exist, what it is that you do?

S1

Speaker 1

4:42

Yeah. I touched on it in the intro a little bit, but basically we're a response to virtual learning. We put our heads together when the pandemic first hit on ways that we could create educational professional opportunities. Specifically at that time for college students and recent college graduates that were sent home and had all of their plans canceled for that summer. So my colleague, Chris White, and I came up with the idea of hosting virtual programming that touched specifically on fintech and we'll kind of dive into our definition of fintech. It's a bit of a buzz word but a differentiated approach to financial literacy with a little bit more contemporary practices and I'm thinking back to when the pandemic hit there was such a rise in retail investing and uptick in demand for understanding how the financial world works both institutionally and personally and I think we're able to meet that void in the short term and then we realized about halfway through that this is a very good way, efficient way low-cost way and far-reaching way to provide high-level live synchronous financial literacy across the globe. So since then, we decided to take a partnership based route as opposed to tuition based route. So, no student pays for the programming that we do. And we decided to partner with companies, nonprofits, educational institutions, and government entities, to democratize financial literacy, and create more of a level playing field. So in terms of underrepresented communities, we would like to propel the academic and professional opportunities for both within finance. And outside of it this is a really good channel to do so and also to connect companies with vetted hireable and educated talent. We have found a way to be that educational and training bridge directly into those companies. So it started out just as you know a couple Zoom calls. We're teaching how to demystify finance and it's turned more into a really good incubator and a pipeline of educating people that are interested in finance both professionally and that want to learn about it just in terms of their day-to-day lives. 

S2

Speaker 2

7:08

That's really funny that you say that in terms of really good zoom call, I think all of us can speak to a lot of really wonderful things brewing over a cup of coffee in real life or a dinner or what have you but now you're absolutely right. I hadn't thought of that, that a lot of business relationships have started over a really good zoom call over the last two or three years. That is hysterical to me. Joel you'd spoken a little bit about financial literacy and I think I know what that means, in terms of my world and you know my experiences but I would love to learn a little bit more about what financial literacy today means to the Viable team.

S1

Speaker 1

7:52

Yeah I mean I guess our definition is slightly more institutional so we're teaching how the financial world works and how it is intertwined by technology. We also focus on personal finance, we think it's incredibly important and very overdue for people within this country and outside of it to understand the intricacies of financial literacy, understand the buzzwords so that they're equipped to make their own personal financial decisions as they pursue any career that they end up end up pursuing. You know, I come from a background of, I was in the financial industry. I was on a by side asset manager. In Boston. And I think that there is a misconception that people that work in finance understand how the financial world works. A lot of times it's not the case at all. So what we wanted to do was to create more accessibility through virtual learning and we're starting to do a hybrid approach. And then to equip people with this information is really opening themselves up to further opportunities. And again, it’s both educationally, it’s professionally, and it's also understanding how the broader world works when it comes to the intersections between finance and really just every facet of capitalism. And then lastly we wanted to level the playing field. I grew up in a family that did talk about finance at the dinner table. A lot of people did not have that opportunity, so if we can accelerate the knowledge of those that weren't exposed to that information early on. When it comes to innovation, think about how many people we’re looking over in terms of those that don't currently have that understanding, but could very quickly rapidly and successfully start to understand the intricacies of this world. So that's kind of how we define it and that's what gives us such excitement is because we think that the demand here and the opportunity here is pretty insatiable.

S2

Speaker 2

9:59

I love that because I can, I've got a four-year-old and it's amazing what topics that regardless of the complexity, if you're just kind of presented it properly that, you know, my son is far more well-versed than some of his classmates in the Toronto Raptors basketball team and certain types of certain specific makes and models of cars because dad won't stop talking about both of those things. As hilarious as that is, and I promise you it's hilarious, those kitchen table conversations can lead towards so much more and that early understanding and allowing folks to really build off those types of conversations is fantastic. I've heard a couple of things I think as Carol and I worked very closely with each other over the years, I know the reasons for Fusemachines existing and you've said a number of things that also kind of seem very familiar and Carol, maybe I'll throw the question to you in terms of how you feel ViableEdu and Fusemachines are complements to each other. And maybe the premise of the partnership between Fusemachines and ViableEdu. Cause I've already heard a number of things and I'm like those are some of our core beliefs.

Speaker 3

11:14

Let me just add one little twist. Like, Joel, I was fortunate enough from the time I was I don't know, 11 years old maybe even longer. I was very interested about companies. Now, obviously, I was interested in companies that made dolls, but yeah, my brother and I started making reports to our father at dinner, so we got into talking about companies when we were kids and that interest stayed with me my whole life. I had seven companies that I was responsible for following and I tracked their stock price every week. I mean, I was in like fifth sixth grade and I was doing this. Anyhow, that's how I got my interest. But how do I see the complements between what Joel's been doing and what Fusemachines has been doing? So, we have been taking young engineers and teaching them how to do advanced AI in finance but these engineers, they don't know the difference between a warrant and an option. I mean, and Joel's trying to help people understand the tools of finance. How you decide to make a decision to buy or sell a stock, right? And what I believe the engineers doing this very sophisticated modeling want to understand, how all this fits together and they don't okay? They know how to create very complex models, but they don't truly see how it relates to the buying and selling of securities. And that is our goal, to basically help the people doing the very sophisticated modeling understand how trading occurs, you know, just what traders, think about all day, right? And vice versa, okay. And have some of the people who are doing buying and selling on a trading desk, understand a little bit about the background of the modeling that has gone into some of the decisions.

S2

Speaker 2

13:41

Right now that makes perfect sense. You know Joel I might hit you with another question in terms of defining something, but we've thrown around the word fintech pretty heavily within our world. I know it's definitely a focus at Fusemachines in terms of the types of partners that we like collaborating with. But I do recognize that word, again means different things to different people. How does fintech fall into your world? And what does that mean to you and your team?

S1

Speaker 1

14:11

Just as a follow up to Cee’s point, I think that this partnership kind of defines both portions of that word. We can be the fin side of fintech and Fusemachines can be the tech side of fintech and the abundance of demand for data-driven education, but particularly AI in my role to financial literacy and connecting people with professional opportunities and equipping them with not only the knowledge, but also the skills that they need to be a value for those companies, AI is high in demand. And to combine what we're able to do and what we're able to teach, I think will serve as an invaluable resource for people that are both trying to innovate within the field and also understand the current and also historical implications of the work that they're the work that they're doing. So you know, our definition of fintech which again is a buzz word, a lot of people have varied. It's kind of like ESG, right? You know, when we say, we're fintech focused, we are basically teaching the major parties and the major intermediaries of the broader financial world and how they're connected by technology and how that's changed over time. Particularly within the last 10 years. I don't think that there's much of a difference between finance and tech anymore, I think fintech and finance are pretty much interchangeable. I think we're past that tipping point. So to have these forms of education to be separate. I think is doing ourselves a disservice as educational providers but also doing our students a disservice so to give them a full encapsulation of what today 2022, 2023 finance looks like should be financially focused with a major with a major you know additional focus on the technological aspects of the day of the day of finance. 

S4

Speaker 2

16:17

We spoke a little bit about the folks that would benefit most from this sort of education. And this sort of curriculum, I get the sense that that's not a small group Joel, like in terms of a target audience, who would you be focusing on? I imagine it's a pretty wide net.

S1

Speaker 1

16:36

That's the beauty of it and that's what we didn't realize at the start. The applicability of what we're teaching, does not have an age connected to. It does not have a professional educational background connected to it. We’re to rethink the antiquated approach of teaching and of identifying talent that can not only understand the current financial and technological world, but are also equipped with the confidence and the tools to innovate with it. In doing so we're realizing that people from all over the world are not only interested in this, but really need it to pursue whatever education and profession that they're looking to do just because of the consolidation of all these different types of industries that are all kind of coming together. So that's what we're really excited about. We're able to connect with people all over the world. People either have someone that they know that they're interested in this type of work, an organization that they're passionate about, that thinks that ViableEdu could be a great financial literacy arm for a company that would be interested in this, schools that are looking to and she ate their educational opportunities. And also governments are really looking to be on the cutting edge of financial technological innovations. So, in terms of partnerships and in terms of the actual individuals that were able to serve, we find it pretty widespread and very large,

S2

Speaker 2

18:37

You know Carol I'm curious about your thoughts, in terms of in today's world, it's incredibly different than it was three years ago. Then it was five years ago. Our new normal is really something that none of us could really have expected. And in today's world, what are your thoughts in terms of the importance of teaching fintech?

S3

Speaker 3

19:02

Well, I think that what we saw in the last couple of years is a lot of very young people getting into stock trading specifically through gamification, right? And people who knew nothing, okay? But we're sitting at computers, got a free invitation to get an account at Robin Hood. And they just started trading, not knowing anything and a lot of them did okay for a while and then some of them got into really bad stuff because they understood nothing. Okay, but they understood games and video games, right? And they thought that investing was a little bit like video games, only it's real money that you can lose as well as make. So I think there's a real need for education, whether it's a teenager or a grandmother, it doesn't matter. You had everybody sort of, well, not everybody, but many, many people… 

S2

Speaker 2

20:24

Open it up to the new world folks that were probably not anywhere close to that space were drawn in and and in numbers  that we hadn't seen before.

S3S1

Speaker 1

20:39

Just as a follow-up to Cee’s point. We've seen a level of urgency to try to teach people in this space because of that exact point. And what we were seeing in 2020 were things were technically going well, but just based off of something that was not necessarily what they were intending to do in terms of financially investing in things. We decided that this is a really good time to try to get in front of those people because eventually yeah it's going to turn and a lot of people are going to get hurt so I just wanted to add that. 

S2

Speaker 2

21:12

Sounds as though there's some catch up that needs to happen between what we do in terms of higher education and traditional finance, there's a gap that's growing a little bit quicker than the traditional education can keep up with. I’ll throw that to both of you, is there a world in which we need to speed up the pace a little bit?

S4

Speaker 1

21:42

Absolutely, I'll jump in really quickly. I think there's a reason that that gap is widening quickly is because the innovation within finance and fintech is evolving so rapidly that it's very hard for these schools to be on the outside looking in, and really adequately teach what exactly is happening in this world. That's kind of why we take an approach, where we have subject matter experts that are doing the innovation, doing the disruption or on the front lines of these changes in fintech to be the ones that are actually teaching. I think that college equips you with an understanding of a lot of the baseline knowledge, in terms of them, more on the finance side, a lot of the other baseline knowledge that you need to have the ability to understand but it's not going to equip you with the information that you need to be valuable at a firm and you know, I don't think that's really by design but to really start to accelerate these opportunities I think there needs to be a complete rethink in the way that financial education and a lot of other education is provided to both college students and all different types of students from different age groups to really match the speed and the velocity of this innovation within this world.

S3

Speaker 3

23:05

Well, let me add a couple things. First of all, we didn't get to Reddit today, but that's one of the names that should be out there because a great deal of these learners were using Reddit as a way to gain information. And not having a full picture, okay? And one of the things that finance professionals, I have come to realize through this phase that we've been through during COVID was the power of individual investors that hadn't really been seriously considered for a long time. So I think you know in MBA programs today, people are rethinking how they've been talking about the individual investor. I mean people are really having to do a rethink and that's healthy. That's great. But we want people to be well equipped and the courses that Joel and his team are developing are to help people be equipped to be able to evaluate information to figure out how they want to participate in this, in this investing world. What Fusemachines has been doing is giving the technical expertise to people, but if I'm an engineer, I don't just want the technical know-how. Okay, in the old days we used to call it Black Box investing. I want more and just knowing how to create algorithms. I really want to understand the full gamut and I don't want to feel like I'm just doing being a technocrat so to speak, you know, working on these models. So I think from the engineering aspect as well as from the people who are just playing around in the markets, they both want to understand more. And that's why we thought the combination of Fusemachines, being able to provide some technical expertise while Viable helping on the practical end, was a really good combination for today's learners. I don't even want to call them students. Because when I think students, I think of a certain age group, when I think of learners, I think of any age. 

S4

Speaker 2

25:35

Now, that's interesting. Then that combination of education and technology that you both kind of speak of. And I'll ask both of you again, I mean I imagine that combination of education and tech is what allows us to keep up with the pace among other things. Why the need now to combine education and tech? 

S1

Speaker 1

26:02

Well, I think it's already happening and it's already happened, you know, for us to provide virtual education is just by definition, the combination of education and tech. And I think it's, you know, I think virtual learning gets a negative connotation and for, and for good reason, but if you can do it in a way that brings a lot of the personability of in person to a virtual ecosystem I think that it can really change the definition of how you can provide this information, we can provide it to. I think we're a lot further along than we initially thought. Particularly when we were forced into a kind of a virtual component with COVID. And then since covid head, I think that a lot of people are realizing that education has changed forever and that there are a lot of ways that we have not really thought of that can provide accessibility of education to people that would not have had that prior. And I think that that point really is, you know, not only is an altruistic way of thinking about education, but it's a huge opportunity to reach for people that cannot that may not have had that opportunity prior. So, you know, we're a little bit more on the kind of the backseat looking out at, you know, a lot of the education, a lot of the edtech innovation that's happening really excites us because we can partner with those firms. Fusemachines is a perfect example of that, and then we can bring our level of and our layer of expertise. Straight from the front lines of finance directly into the integration of whatever this education looks like. S2

Speaker 2

27:52

I think that it speaks to Viable very much so in terms of the elegance, and obviously being on the Fusemachines side of that partnership, of that integration happening, we pride ourselves as being on a certain set of front lines on the technology side and then being able to connect and work that closely with Viable has been seamless. And I get it. I think it speaks to that forward-looking nature of your leadership. Absolutely. Carol were you about to add something?

S3

Speaker 3

28:20

What Fusemachines wants to do, which is similar to Viable, is a combination of what we call synchronous and asynchronous. We call it online live, but we do think that in person, whether it's in real life or online live, it's a very key component of learning, versus asynchronous when people are doing stuff on their own and getting you know, good feedback on it but it's a different experience. And what I'm hoping that online learning becomes is something better than it is today where you know, students are at different levels and that they can enhance from where they're starting and go further and that it's somehow not the same experience for every student, right? Because people come to a course, whatever it is, at a different level. So that's for the future. But what I'm saying is both Viable and Fusemachines are pretty committed to this combination of synchronous and asynchronous. Whether the synchronous is going to be in real life or not. It's, you know, and maybe it's a combination, but both have their place in education and we both see education for people at every stage in their development, whether they be 15 or 50, it doesn't matter because things are changing. And people want to understand finance today whether they're 15 or 50, it doesn't matter.

S1

Speaker 1

30:04

I hope in our lifetimes that education is one of the most evolved aspects of life. I think that there is so much opportunity here to change the landscape and the definition of how education is provided, who education is provided to and I'm hoping ViableEdu and Fusemachines together can kind of change that narrative and be part of that change.

S2

Speaker 2

30:34

Yeah I'm very optimistic for exactly that. You know education is an incredibly important part of just about all facets of my life. Obviously I'm part of the Fusemachines team but also my wife is an educator, she teaches first grade, and I’ve heard a number of stories over the last few years of moments that she has with her students and I’ve absolutely said, countless number of times, that child is going to remember that forever, regardless of, first grade 5th, grade, whatever it is. I know, we all have those moments. And I'm truthfully jealous of someone being able to have that connection with someone and, she's incredible at what she does and puts in the work. And you see how that comes out in terms of seeing these children grow right before your eyes but what I would love some, one of my fun questions that I'm excited to ask both of you and Carol perhaps I'll start with you. Can you remember a teacher who taught you about finance, an individual that you still remember? And if you've got the name that's extra credit points for you. I'll ask both of you that same question. But is there a teacher that taught you about finance that you remember that you would be able to list out by name. 

S4

Speaker 1

32:07

You know, there's a good amount to choose from. My mind goes to to my undergrad at Rhodes College because specifically because we weren’t taught finance in high school and that's another whole nother conversation about something that's changed in the United States that I'm really excited about is that finance is starting to be integrated into a lot of States’ Social Studies curriculum. But at Rhodes College, I had a professor by the name of Jade Planchon, I believe it was her first year ever teaching and she's been there, you know, probably eight plus years now but Jade really brought together everything that we were learning that was more definitional finance and made, it makes sense for everyday, learn learning and understanding what's actually going on in the world. We would bring in the Wall Street Journal and she would ask us to define what the title of an article actually meant in layman's terms, just ask just explain to me what this actually means and in doing. So it really kind of brought what I was learning in class and flipping through flashcards, it really brought it full circle for me to actually start to apply what I am slightly interested in into what I am definitely interested in. And I think that jump is where a lot of people get lost in terms of pursuing a career in finance or in fintech. So Professor Jade Plachon was huge for me on that front. Also she just made learning fun and she was also a coach in our CFA investment team. It was a little bit of travel and some case studies and she was the one that actually made finance relatable, fun and and you know gave me that extra boost to pursue it as a career.

S2

Speaker 3

34:26

What I'm most grateful for, I got my MBA at NYU and before I started we met with one of the deans and this was maybe it was three months before we were going to start classes and sort of like what we could do over the summer. I was an economics and political science major in undergrad. So you know, I knew a little bit but not a lot, right? I didn't and I didn't really understand finance. And this one dean. His name is Dick Schmidt, he said you’re going to read The Wall Street Journal every day this summer and you are going to learn so much by just reading the paper, every day that you are going to be amazed at how much you're going to know. And then he recommended an accounting book because of course, I didn't really know anything about accounting and it was like, think about it as sort of a kid's workbook. So what I did at the time was I thought of everything in the world as debits and credits and you know it really it was a great thing for me to have and to use and to get accustomed to thinking in the world of accounting because I had never thought about anything to do with accounting before. So for me that getting together and preparing for what the new world was going to be as an MBA student was really terrific and I appreciate this dean’s taking the time to and and okay. Today, you know, classes are pretty much 50/50 men and women but I can tell you at my class at NYU, which is a long time ago, maybe there were five percent women. Things have changed. So, I mean, you know, and anybody was invited to attend this like, free summer kind of event, but I, being more anxious, probably than the guys. I definitely wanted to avail myself of any  extra stuff that I could absorb. I say to people, I've learned more from being a regular reader of financial stuff and I read the journal. I read the New York Times Finance, I just read. And now, I would say I read Bloomberg. I would say, I'm a Bloomberg devotee, whatever. But I really learn practical stuff from reading articles every single day, I start my day with reading Bloomberg stuff and I end my day with it. You have to stay current. I think the best financial reporting comes from Bloomberg. I don't work for them!

S1

Speaker 1

38:26

From an educational perspective it’s the importance of intellectual curiosity and individual education. And what we're going to be able to do with this partnership that's to provide that initial boost and baseline understanding of the world of the financial industry and AI. But to then just use that by itself is going to really bring anyone that participates in this class anywhere, what it will give you is that initial boost to really start to get that confidence that hey, this world isn't actually as complicated as I once thought. And you know, if I really put my mind to this, I think there could be a lot of opportunities here, with ViableEdu. That's what we really tried to hone in on with our students is we're not going to we’re not going to provide you with everything that you need to know, because it's naturally insatiable there's always something more, that you need to know something that you have to stay current on because this world is changing so much. But to get that, that initial foot in the door is, you know, is the biggest step. But from there, it really comes down to that individual push and hopefully we’re equipping our students with that momentum to move forward educational and professional igniting that spark within them. 

S1

Speaker 1

40:00

We have our website ViableEdu.com and we're pretty active on LinkedIn. You can reach out to me, Joel Brown Christensen and the other co-founder and leader instructor Chris White on LinkedIn as well. 

S4

Speaker 2

40:22

Fantastic, we’ll make sure we include the links as we drop this podcast so folks will find it easy enough to find those links and connect with you that way. But I really appreciate both of your time. I've taken enough of it for today, but I knew this was going to be a fun one and it did not disappoint. Thank you both so much and again hopefully, I imagined as the partnership continues, the three of us will be chatting sometime soon.

S1

Speaker 1

40:53

Thank you. It's really fun. 

S4

Speaker 4

40:55

Thanks so much guys.