Reinventing Immunodeficiency Treatments with Maternal Antibodies

Speaker 2

0:02

All right. Viraj. As some of my friends know, I've been trying to lock down this conversation for a while now. Full disclosure to our audience, I've known Viraj for quite some time and we've worked together kind of in the past in Canada. He's left and gone back home to the states and this has just been a wonderful opportunity to reconnect and catch up and learn a lot more about the kind of what you've been working on. So, welcome!

S1

Speaker 1

0:44

Good to be with you Umar.

S2

Speaker 2

0:45

Great as always. Always a pleasure. So one thing that I love doing and I think it's any one of its kind of listen to previous episodes that I've I've been a part of I stacked, the deck bringing folks that I enjoy talking to but I would I also do love doing in terms of the questions, you know, I'm sitting with someone that's doing really interesting work. But I'm always so curious about the path where you started and how you got to be where you are because it's very rarely, very a linear thing. So I'd love to know again. This is the chair you're sitting in today and kind of from education onward, how you got to be where you are and what you're doing today?

S1

Speaker 1

1:24

Yeah, great question. I mean, Toronto is a great city, full of young scientists and I used to do like career seminars for them. So, I think this part will resonate with that kind of crowd, especially, but hopefully more than that. But to your question, earlier in my career I was like, oh, I meant to be a grad student. So, I did that. Then I said, I meant to be a postdoc, and I did that, I said oh meant to be, you know, a professor track person. But when you're in it long enough, you realize, I mean, sure that could work, but the odds are a little bit against you. Like the total amount of PG graduates are Masters graduates? That's one thing. And then the amount of open Professor roles at key institutions, that's a very different thing. So kind of a supply-demand classic mismatch. Setting that aside I also realized being in a lab and executing one a say it's kind of gratifying you get this very clear result hopefully but there's also an opportunity costs and that's a phrase, I learned being in grad school is like well if you're doing this, what are the other things you're not doing and those other things were tackling huge questions or like understanding how multiple partners could work at a question, that's too. Large for any one group or person to do and so okay. Well what roles let you do that? And so I was lucky to get some rolls first in the states. And then for many years in Toronto, where it's actually about partnership building multi-stakeholder agreements, you know, government funding for startups to work with academics and to pitch solutions to enterprises. And that I felt like, oh, this is kind of fun because everyone has to be blue sky in the beginning, you have to be willing to just like throw out weird ideas and make mistakes and get called out. If that gets you to a place where now everyone's aligned and someone else will put a bunch of money behind it, and the key stakeholders can do the work that they have capacity to do, but didn't have the funding. So that was like, coming away from the Ivory Tower and into the venture building or venture supporting ecosystem. But then in terms of how I transitioned from that to this, it literally becoming a dad, you know, sighs. You know, I became a dad about nine years ago as with many new parents, you start stacking packets of frozen breast milk over time. Because new moms are often pumping late at night. Sometimes at work or sometimes both and you have it there because you might need it obviously. But if you don't use it all, you don't throw it out. That's literally a mom's call it liquid gold for very good reasons. So you don't get rid of it. But at the same time months later if you just never used it, your baby's weaning off of milk, I mean you don't have any reason for it. So I see those pouches and I would see them through the lens of new dad, but also like dorky scientists as well. These are full of nutrients and antibodies, you know, immune factors nutritional factors that's literally the evolutionary purpose of milk. So is there a way to extract or derive certain parts and treat certain conditions where they don't have that thing and if that was true it wouldn't just be a product for babies. What if you could take the antibodies which help us fight infections and give that to people who don't make antibodies who have immunodeficiencies and keep getting sick? So honestly at that time, I didn't really do anything with it. I said this milk, maybe that's a resource out, the world. I sat on it and did nothing for a couple of years because that's what all of us have that have new families, you have spouses and their day jobs. So it's really hard to know. Do I actually take time and like, think about this random idea? That's probably going to go nowhere. And then that movie Inception, I love that movie because it's like you can't get it out. That's, that's kind of me. Like, I can't ignore. This thing is going on, like know, I'd me forever. So it's all right, let's just do something about it. So just started, like, educating myself is extra milk. A thing in the world is it like a rare, is it weird to ask about it? Who collects this? And that got me thinking about milk banks, you know, the network that you and I did a lot of homework on absolutely is ago. So, oh, that's a thing they collect. But then they always a percentage, they don't use those like. So there really is this supply. That's kind of untapped, you know, this is the thought process I'm doing over months and months and then I said if I could only get my hands on some.

S2

Speaker 2

5:20

Yeah, absolutely absolutely. But we've had conversations about this at length and I think again the the end goal and what you're looking to achieve I imagine when you're having those conversations about getting your hands on some but it becomes very very quickly people see the vision. 

S1

Speaker 1

5:41

And that was the greatest part about it because some of the earliest champions and stakeholders that we've pulled in and that have like could have been with us from the distance from the get-go we pitched or we first approached when we had had nothing really just an idea. You know, I approach my, the person who's now, my co-founder that way. I chatted with midwives, nurses, new mom's milk bank directors, like cold outreach. I was like this thing doesn't exist, but what if it did, would that be crazy? Would it be weird that I'm even asking you this? And those early champions like, no, no, that should be a thing in the world. I actually don't know why it isn't a thing in the world. So to your point like, and I wasn't like super practiced in selling the vision. It was just more questions and humility. I think is a great blessing that I realized like the humility aspect of learning from them. Instead of telling them, I want to build something. I think that's what made the difference, because this guys, fairly humble. He's genuinely curious, he's not trying like trying to make a quick buck, so sure. I should probably tell him what I know about this world.

S2

Speaker 2

6:45

Right. Absolutely. And I can only imagine the challenges in the space that you're in. I think some of the common early conversations that we had in terms. Kind of building out a bit of a process. I imagine, you know, being a male in that space and having those types of conversations would have been one of the challenges. Talk to me about some of the things that you kind of overcame on the in the early phases and even some of the stuff that you're going through now? I think those are the types of things that would help folks that were looking to kind of start something new. What are the things that you overcame?

S1

Speaker 1

7:15

Yeah. And I think that same approach like the humility approach. I mean you know like mansplaining or manspreading like those words were in the lexicon at that. I'm sorry. Well, the only way to really do this is to be sensitive and respectful, you know, like, I don't know the breastfeeding experience and I read it a ton about milk banks, but I only know the details of what I'm calling up the milk bank director. You know, there has to be some humility and genuine curiosity about what they do, why they do it, what doesn't work well and that I think, definitely served me well, but the great thing is sure, it could have been easy to get caught up on this weird, like gender imbalance, like a man might build a company that leverages this resource that women contribute to, yeah, that could have been a risk. If the conversations didn't go right. But at least my read is, what we want to do here, medically speaking, it's so transcendent. I think it does get to rise above like, you know, political concerns or, you know, like gendered concerns. And this is my impression like because I've been we spoken to the like wait, so this is a pathway to unlock new therapeutics for immunodeficient patients who obviously exist across all, you know, socio-economic and political and racial and ethnic identities. If you could deliver benefit across the Spectrum, then what's it going to take to do that? And then like your coalition building, gets that much easier, right?

S2

Speaker 2

8:40

That makes that makes perfect sense. And I think one of the things that always struck me in very quickly, I mean, I'll share what, I think we've spoken at this at length and when we kind of first connected, it's been, it's been intimidating. You sit in front of someone with your pedigree and and then see how can I assist you? How can we work on things? I think very quickly we both kind of realized that there's such an authenticity to what you're trying to achieve. And then I think being able to work with you to kind of, figure out how to connect with people, but also wasn't a lot of work on my part, definitely, in terms of your ability to look, someone in the eyes, connect, be authentic and and let them know exactly what you're trying to achieve. And then it is all for the greater good. Which it was just so obvious in the early days that we we spoke with you. You did just touch upon, you know, novel therapeutics and I do remember kind of as we spoke quite a while ago. There was those touched on covid discoveries as well. Is that still part of the world for Lactiga right now? 

S1

Speaker 1

9:35

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that's our most active program, not that we've stopped work on original progress but it's we’re spread thin I'll admit. But the point is we have different programs like they both deserve to grow. They both need to grow. How do we do that? So if anything we’re pretty good at resource allocation because it's just not okay to take a really promising program for immunodeficient patients, for example and shelve it. Right? Like what's it going to take to not let it collect dust. That's been our operating mentality. So to bring it back to covid, yeah, you know, literally the beginning of the pandemic so mid 2020, we recognized there was a collaborative opportunity in New York. She was looking at milk antibodies and milk immunology, from a research perspective. We were saying, we have the same questions but like a clinical product development perspective. Can we collaborate? Because it we help you do research, and then your research benefits the commercialization pipeline, that's a great discussion to have and that's been very fruitful. Fast forward to now, you know, we've had to overcome all the challenges. You don't realize at the time, it's like, oh, get milk from covid recovered mothers and then test it right, sounds easy, but which are the right sample. And so you start layering all the details. Does she have enough? How do we know that the high, samples are high and the low samples are no or low, who do we ship it to, who's going to do the extractions, and then, who do we take the extractions to do, like post-processing testing. So this whole sequence of steps and it's complicated, no question about it. But at the same time just breaking it down very iteratively and kind of break into logical pieces. Like oh once we know this, we can go to the next step and that worked. It was a long slow process but fast forward to now we have a couple different grants. I mean a fortunate position, I kind of lose track of how many grants we've gotten, because we have been doing really well, these past couple months and the past couple years, but a lot of those are because of the promising early, early data sets. And now, some of the newer ones are like rolling in our actual method saying, we actually pulled the milk and got antibodies and tested would it still work? And the answer is yes. Based on some earlier data sets that just came in a week or two ago. Now the next obvious question is tested in small animals. Does it work or if not? Like how do we adjust the dosage? So that's what we're working on now. So it's been iterative, but science is that way. I mean, it is unique and I can speak from 12 years of experience in the lab. Like there's no shortcuts if you're expecting it to just totally work the first time. Well, your expectations are not going to be met. 

S2

Speaker 2

12:13

I always kind of looked to you as in our early conversations, you know I always enjoy sitting with an individual that hasn't a skill set that I don't have and experience obviously that I don't have. And what can I learn from from them and the thing that I was always impressed with and I always kind of pick your brain about was I saw some of those a little ahead of me in terms of being a dad. Your little one is not so little anymore, my son's for I was always so intrigued with your ability to balance your life as you know chief scientific officer, co-founder and dad and the way that you spoke about each with the same level of enthusiasm and love was always like, I mean I inspiring is a corny word but you know me and I think I absolutely could say that I was always so impressed by how I mean, I'll ask it for the benefit of the podcast. But how do you balance being a dad and the fairly work heavy lifestyle, the amount of work you need to put in to build what you've built in the short amount of time you have. How do you do both? 

S1

Speaker 1

13:21

Thanks so much for the kind words. She's my first and definitely most successful venture. I hope that will be true even if Lactiga continues to do really well. That's nothing when I want for myself, at least. Yeah. You know I've sort of had a lot of like complicated things happen to us in the past couple years. And you know, she was young enough that it was very difficult to, you know, the assumption as a parent is like, if I showed her all the challenges, I'll kind of clear out path for her, you know, I think as a parent you want to that and we kind of to will tend to hover and helicopter parent anyway, which is not really healthy, but that's a lot of us fall into that trap was like, let me quit all the obstacles so she knows what it's like to have more of a carefree life but then, you know, things happen that that's taken away. So I, you know, I don't get to give her all the assurances you might want, but then you start realizing well, she's going to have to deal with this adversity and I can be this guide and like her, most trusted chaperone, but that doesn't remove adversity. So the way I wound up applying that in some different ways because I just did. Really have a choice was to actually, let her feel invested in the process of what I was doing with Lactiga. Now, prior to that, like I had experienced a layoff in there was like, you know, way longer time that I would have wanted of no salary, you know, like just sort of the working off the nest egg, but working towards do I get another job to pay the bills and Lactiga has on nights and weekends thing or do I take a bigger plunge into Lactiga but that's like egg could be a year or two before anyone would dare to fund me to do this. So there's a lot of moving pieces and like just financially. Does that make any sense? You know, I kind of laughed, I just, joining the startup world in any capacity is very irrational. I think because the things that a typical job gives you like you know 401ks or steady paychecks or vacation sick time benefits, all these things, you can have to forego all of that for most forms of entrepreneurship so they can feel very irrational already and then to stack on this like, you know, parenting and then transitioning full-time parenting. You know, it was a lot of complications to thread together, but I think I almost don't take credit. I think like time management skills just like chose me, I think I'm pretty good at that, you know, I like you that. Yeah, she gets fed, she sleeps on time, she has a great social life and like, I make all those things happen. I make sure that I reserve the time for that. But what I was getting at is when she was much younger and all those three, our Y-Space advisory calls that we would have in the launch. Why you cohort? Where first met you? Right? Have to tell her daddy's going to be. In for about two and a half hours, maybe three hours. But this is the reason why I'm committed to this, this small tiny company or this idea that could become a company that could become a big company and, you know, over time, I tried to give her a way to feel invested in that and one great like tangible example. And I know you've seen this picture but we got second place at demo day through watching you. And so, there's a picture of me holding that giant novelty check. It's like 4 feet wide or 6 feet wide and then I took it home. It was in my tiny apartment just like leaned up against the wall. Yeah. So at some point I took a picture of her holding that check. It's a silly but fun example. Unlike let her feel invested in the process like Daddy got this cool prize, right? And honestly from that was early 2020 to now when things happen and we got a grant to regard a partnership where we got a mentioned in the media. I'll just tell her like something really cool happened today. You want to get boba together or should we do like a fun dinner tonight? At one of your favorite restaurants? Because I want you to be here for this. Celebration like something called, it happened to me, you know, this happened to us, it's not just me. And I think as she gets older, maybe she'll have all these internalized lessons that I didn't explicitly share, but that she's picked up over time, like Daddy kind of built something, almost from nothing. He had to have people he could really trust. And they, you know, they work together. They had this shared thing, they wanted to accomplish is for a good cause, I mean, if she's picking up those lessons, I feel like I've already done a lot of my job.

S2

Speaker 2

17:23

Absolutely. That’s lovely. I will not forget, I that photo of you holding the check after, you know, the competition that we that we worked on. I remember, obviously being three things, I was impressed with the size of the check. Number number two, was absolutely your suit because you promised me. You had a great suit game and but you had the coolest mask I had ever seen to that point. I think it wasn't fully maskey was more like a bandana that lifted up and it's funny cause now you're making me remember the entirety of that photo. So I'm like, I know he's stylish as hell. But that was, that was kinda next level. That was a great time working with that accelerator. And, and, and, and, and to your point I think, there were such great people there. I mean, I felt like all of us were learning together and I think you'd mentioned a few times me and let's collaborate with like-minded individuals, always really, really wonderful. Do you see your daughter kind of falling in your scientific footsteps?

S1

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, clearly, I'm very biased, but I feel like she's good at lots of different things and I think that's right for her to be exploratory, like, sometimes you just make arts and crafts and spend an hour, and then show me this drawing, she made, oh perfect. Sometimes you will spend an hour in the park doing soccer drills with me, I'll say, oh, that's perfect. And then like I'm totally tapped out of energy and she's like, oh well, what I wanted to keep going. So there's the art, athletics, school, she loves to read, she’s like funny and silly with all her friends. So if she's capable of like doing well in this many domains like, who am I to tell her? No pick one just like, focus on science. I feel like it's too early. I mean that will evolve, right? I'm kind of like reading her signals as much as I'm imposing. My own discipline is like, well, let me take a step back, like, what does she want? What is she good at where she gravitating towards?

S2

Speaker 2

19:16

Absolutely makes perfect sense. I just, I, it's funny, and not in terms of career path, but obviously, I think we've chatted about some the past all of my kind of like sand. And hobbies would have your things that I push on to my son. I'm a huge car guy is some of it as I think, I know, you know. And and if my son comes home in a Porsche someday, wonderful, but he comes home in a Prius or hybrid, I'll be fine. Whatever you like. I'm going to try with some of the other stuff. 

S2

Speaker 2

19:42

What would current Viraj go back and tell Viraj from I don't know three years ago, four years ago. What advice would 2022 to give back to the younger version?

S1

Speaker 1

20:21

Yeah, I like that question a lot. I think I have one clear thing I would say which is simply trust yourself the most. Meaning very well-meaning people in your life. If you're like me, you have high achieving nerdy friends like engineer lawyers, doctors grad students and there's not a brag that's just people. I met when I was early and I've stayed friends with. I mean, they're very hyper-intelligent like probably a third of my friends finished a PhD and then got another degree. So if anything I'm like the under it, Over at school cohort. I was like, oh, you just got a PhD? Yeah, that can be intimidating but some of them who knew me. Well, a very well-meaning, I think the type of feedback they gave was not actually helpful. What I mean is if someone's from, let's say, an enterprise background or like, even a c-suite level for a super successful company, when they tell you, hey look, I've been there, you know, billion dollar companies, don't make the mistakes you guys are making. Even though that's it's technically true, that's not actionable or really helpful for a founder. A founder needs to make thousand dollar mistakes, 5,000 dollar mistakes, they're not in a position to make a billion dollar mistake like an enterprise company. Those things are different. You, you should be willing to take a chance … Take a chance on yourself if you know the kind of work you've put in, you know, for me it's like, I'm not a dummy. I finished my PhD and postdoc fellowships and you know, I had patents to my name. So I knew like that, I was capable of those, I was just kind of reviewing my own track record like, alright, I must know what I'm doing a little bit, but you can have people who again are well-meaning, but they're like, I haven't really thought this through. I know you think you have, right? And even if it's well-meaning I think those are the moments you have to trust yourself more.

S2

Speaker 2

22:11

Right I can look back kind of hurts my own path as well and there's moments in my career in which, there's, there's two paths that I could have taken and the one that I eventually did take was absolutely that betting on yourself, maybe for the first time truly, in my life. And what the most interesting part of all that is now, like when you're much much younger, if there's failure, you're back in your mom's basement, it is what it is. But if you reach a certain point in life, there are people that depend on you and then you know, there's a hell of a risk there. So but to ooint you know your track record, you know what you've accomplished, you know what you're capable of then you know, lets you know, put your head down focus and an attack something in a particular way to get to where, you know you can get to. And the life is life. Things happen and you know things may not play it. Exactly as you see fit. But you know, I can absolutely attest to the fact that you know, if you need a reference to back up, those claims will be well, I’ll be first in line to provide any evidence to support exactly what you said in terms of what's happened with Lactiga.

S1

Speaker 1

23:12

Well, you were a hype man for me early on during demo day. That's true.

S2

Speaker 2

23:16

Oh I took that seriously. For those that are listening we were kind of in a pitch competition essentially and I was lucky enough to be chosen, average is good enough to allow me to introduce him. And I got to tell you man, it was again. I took that seriously, I practiced, we had that, we had the script we worked on it. We agreed on it. I did everything I could to read that script as much as I could. To see and make it look like, I wasn't reading it over and over and over and over again. I think I was, I was happy with the way with the way that that evening played out for the record.

S1

Speaker 1

23:51

I noticed, the amount of effort that goes into something like that. You know, I always appreciate because some people could have read off a note card, you clearly didn't? Yeah, I know the difference. 

S2

Speaker 2

24:01

Well, I know, I appreciate that as well and you don't wanna see some of our competitors. I'm like, hang on are not like the rest of you folks doing the introductions, not taking this seriously, and people are just making it up off the cuff and I'm like, Do you guys understand what's at stake here? Or did you just not care for the individual that you're working with all of those? Seems like that might happen? And I was I was surprised that not everybody was in the same boat. But having said that super fun.

S1

Speaker 1

24:26

That comes back to coalition building. I mean, I told you from the beginning, I wanted you to feel an ownership in the advisory support you gave to me and you know, you said some like 5 minutes ago, I hope that the person across from you has a skill set different from mine so I'm learning something. And that was reciprocal, right? I'm not just being nice but you know, you had this sales funnel, this rigorous structured process. I've never practiced you know, studied Marketing sales. So as we had our first couple meetings, realizing like what are these two random guys could like, how are they going to have the milk bank world to begin with? It did become evident. Oh, like the process and the structure and the sequence that you actually proposed to me, Like those were the frameworks that allow their discussions to move and sort of give the milk bags evidence that we were committed and we were looking for mutual outcomes and we were working towards deadlines.

S2

Speaker 2

25:22

I appreciated that greatly because I'm used to coming into that type of consultation or that work with someone in which I'm kind of driving 100%. It's up to me to find the common ground. It's up to me to lead the conversation. It's up to me to keep the conversation going and make sure that it's productive. What I really appreciated with  the conversations that we had, I knew that I had kind of, this is going to sound silly, but a bit of a dance partner that could equally kind of meet me more than halfway if necessary and a lot. It was surprising to me how quickly after that first conversation that we had and I'm like, oh no, I think we've got a bit of a plan here. And I've said it before, I think truthfully having read through your, your pedigree and being little intimidated. And but then also, I think you, you kind of brought me back. Back down. Listen, exactly. That was I have my skill set. You had yours. Let's figure out how we can help each other and very quickly I think we got to that point. So I always appreciated that and in terms of what we did and it's a great year. Absolutely, in terms of the time that we that we work together,

S1

Speaker 1

26:26

There's something we got to share here because it really is about our mutual efforts. You remember? I used to, like, give you updates and say, oh, you know, I'll just I'll talk to you tomorrow, and then we'll talk about updates. And sometimes you could tell that I was going to drop a like drop the mic. So you know for benefit of today's audience, you know, we talked about. What's it going to take to move one milk bank from like early discussion to proposal to something by like a signed letter, right? Not legally binding but a signed letter and you know fast forward to like the end of that summer. I said, hey, you know, I'll give you a brief update when we chat and I think the goal was one letter and I was like I didn't get one letter, I got four. And then I was like mic drop. That's, you know, that's what was the outcome of applying. This like sales funnel process lens onto this like science nerd. I was like, I think I'm onto something, but it's gotta be more than just a discussion

S2

Speaker 2

27:24

I absolutely did that and I also made sure. I think I might know if I'm even strange that way in which I can sense, something kind of happening, or someone's made it very clear that something, they're not giving me the full picture, I won't pry, I will not pry. I'm not, I'm not someone who's going to search my home looking for Christmas presents because I know they're there. Do you want the full effect of the moment and giving that person the opportunity because I know I'm absolutely going to adore and and you know, like you of hype man. Like I'm yeah, I'm yeah, you're on stage. You have the mic. I'm in the back. My mouth covered jumping up and down and being equally as as excited. In terms of that collaboration that working together, it's something that I definitely miss in meeting new people. People and it again with the role that I'm in right now, haven't I had my team but it is cool to just kind of meet someone new and see what we can kind of build kind of quickly and kind of do new interesting things. You know, it was, it was always again, impressive for the momentum that you always seem to maintain like. I was wondering about that. Is there something that like continues to inspire you as if some gets inspiring you right now and I kind of keeps you keeps you going? How is that you find, you know, the extra gear, the energy in the tank to kind of, keep it moving all the time?

S1

Speaker 1

28:49

The covid paradigm has opened many of our eyes in different ways. One of the ways it opened my eyes was to really drive home he point that while it's truly a public health situation, it literally impacts all of us, it is frankly much worse for certain cohorts, certain demographics and the key demographic that has it worse than the sort of rest of us, is the immuno-compromised population because you're less likely to have a positive response to vaccination. If they had a natural infection, it was more likely to be a severe infection and because they may not have generated robust immunity, there are more likely to have a follow-up, subsequent infection even though a healthy person would be pretty well protected from another infection in the short-term. Twitter can be quite a cesspool but it's also a really nice Channel where these little tidbits of information can rise to the top. And so, just by following, you know, like immunodeficiency foundations, which we actually engaged a long time ago and the following some of those. Now there's an individual activists, disability activists are immunocompromised patients and then you seeing these little tidbits and it did clarify to me the story. And this isn't surprising immunologically, but it's understanding the Immunology in the biology, that's a very technical way to contemplate a situation seeing these, you know, heartfelt and sad, and upsetting tweets, from people actually, like, living that experience. That's such a different element than you and I talked about like, what's the emotional, what's the personally resonant way to pitch this vision to milk bags or two outside, Champions or stakeholders? And I think that did that for me. So it is very easy to want to stay up till like maybe 11:00 p.m. and just like finish out a document because like, what’s at stake, if we can make our small dent in their world and we can do it like, in a year instead of five years. Hey guess what I'm going to stay up a little extra and like, put in a little extra work, like there's no, there's no challenge finding motivation because I know what's out there and I know who's out there.

S2

Speaker 2

30:56

That's just wonderful. And I was about to say that that's obvious, but it's not true. I think that's a testament to you, your team and the things that you're trying to achieve And and I've said it a couple times during our conversation now that there's just such a genuine as to what you're doing and I mean I saw it early on, I know that's why you're able to connect and build these relationships that you do need. I mean it's I don't know if that's unique to what Lactiga is doing but you need to build these relationships with your partners that's not based on compensation or any sort of monetary gain. Like there is a you need to convey that you are trying to do something more than just have a paycheck which makes makes perfect sense. So I've obviously followed along, I'm on the newsletter. I know what's going on with Lactiga but I think for the benefit of our listeners, I know what's next. What's on Deck? What is next for Lactiga? 

S1

Speaker 1

32:02

Yeah, we've taken some big swings and I think they're really working out and so I'll give you I'll give you one clear example and one more a stealth example. So, you know, as you know, the beginnings of the company were Therapeutics. So these are medical products that go through the FDA approval pathway here in the States. You know, Health Canada, approval over by you. That's a very rigorous process. It has to be and it should be so, but it's also lengthy and costly. So, you know, just thinking about like the sciences is really cool and it makes sense and we're leveraging the science that's already there. We're not trying to engineer around it because you can do that, but that adds a lot of cost and complexity. So our mindset, I think our philosophy at the as a philosophy as leverage, what's there? And then apply that. So that it's that much more effective a solution instead of saying, well we took and then we have to modify everything to make it. Do what we wanted. Right? There's there's a bioengineering approach, there's nothing wrong with that but our approach has been like, what are the natural attributes? How do we make the best use of those? How that applies here, is that the whole therapeutics formation origins of the company that still still chugging along that takes up almost all of our time. But we realized there is a way to get some of that value into the public or the public domain, like separate from the therapeutic pathway, like what about a non-therapeutics pathway so that, you know, the oral product side and so we were doing some discovery. We think that's a cool opportunity and you know, from a business perspective if it allows us to get to market faster with a different product line and then create some Revenue channels that we weren't anticipating ever in the early stages of the company, that's a pretty cool story to tell. Not just to investors but just from trade groups, business missions, business organizations like it's exciting to start to speak about ourselves in a more sophisticated business way as opposed to you know scientifically we're trying to build this one thing, here's the scientific test. Now we can take some bigger swings and say that's a huge revenue opportunity and we're still learning. But we're getting ourselves sophisticated and we think we can make a dent in this other vertical. And that's sort of vertical number two, there's a third one. One and that's in stealth mode. So I'll leave it there for today. But again, we're taking some swings because we think they're educated and we think we can create cool opportunities. So that's an exciting time because it gives us a reason to say, yeah, we have to be focused on the science and the technology, but each time a dataset comes out, it kind of justifies us saying, let's ask bigger questions. Like, here's the technical scientific questions. What are the bigger, strategic opportunities and are we the team that could get that done? That's a really cool question to ask because it's so nebulous. There's no yes or no. But you have to define if it's a yes like you sort of need to answer that for yourself. That's a really interesting challenge.

S2

Speaker 2

34:47

Wow. It's been you know, it's funny. I think if I was to ask you that question, probably on a monthly basis since we met, it's all it's been and you know, knock on wood. It's been a wonderful upward trajectory. It's been exciting to watch and I guess I haven't asked that question to you directly and in a while now but I am wonderfully satiated. I knew exactly what type of response I was going to get. Now the last last question I have for you is one that I've been waiting quite a while to get the answer to. So I don't remember what at one point, you dropped this is wonderful nugget in terms of, in terms of your background because I think I'm normally when I play something like two truths, and a lie, it's all of it is useless and boring and there's nothing I can do this make that game interesting remotely. Now the absolute. So this this is a truth that you mentioned to me. And I don't know how I never got the answer to this over the course of our friendship but I've waited years to find out because you mentioned years ago, that you and either you had exhibited or something is still currently exhibited in the Smithsonian. And I have honestly the entire purpose of this podcast was solely for me to get the answer to this. Just all that you know, Lizzie I but I apologize to my producer, Lizzie really. That's the entire that that is the reason I brought you here today, sir. So finally, can you please tell me what is the answer to that question? And is that still there at the Smithsonian?

S1

Speaker 1

36:28

Wow, great question. Thanks for asking. I don't think I've even ever had a reason to say anything about it for like 10 years or however many years. So it's the US Library of Congress. And so yes, to my knowledge, there's a piece of poster art work I created for an indie film that to my knowledge is still there. So I'll give you a little more backstory and I'm so glad you asked this because now that you know me, it's probably not even too surprising to you that I have this random like piece of artwork because, you know, me like, oh, this isn't a guy that just does one thing for 10 years. He's like this random dude that take shots on wherever he can because he thinks he can make a difference. So it goes in in that realm so way back in grad school I was focus on studies but I would bump into like art nerds the theater kids, right? Because friends of mine would say come to this play. I'm going to be in it and, you know, just it's free. It's like close to free, its nonprofit. And there's actually a young South Asians, in the Houston environment. So, first time I went, I was like, this is so cool. This is so close knit. Nonprofits are not flashy, not pretentious just like literally Community Theater like sometimes kids sometimes teens and young adults sometimes like, you know, people in their 50s and 60s, playing a grandma or parent or something like that. The first one I walked to the organizers afterwards. I said, I know. It's a non-profit. Can I contribute my time in some capacity? I love art, maybe I could help with set design. Like if there's a way I meant maybe they said, yeah, of course. And so, you know, I kind of went from just like, volunteer to Art person to art director, to a head set designer at some point. And so I built this, you know, just great rapport with these people, and they were the fun theater nerds. Like, some of them, just went to the choreography, the dancing, the acting itself, like the craft of acting, the people, doing the lighting, the sound all this stuff, such as such a fun environment you're hanging out with grad school nerds, all day. It's kind of cool to use the other half of your brain and like, like, what would, what would a theater kid want to talk about? Probably not my experiments. Let me expand myself. And so through that network a friend who had done directing a bunch of times through this nonprofit group, he had said that he had done this indie film, I got to watch it. I thought it was spectacular and it's called Fatakra and it was about the Immigrant experience for South Asians, for an Indian family coming to like small-town, Texas. Just cool setting, very tight. Very sweet story. And while he was finishing up the production, he said, would you consider the poster art work for this film? And again, the point was just like, local distribution. Just to like build a little bit of a name and some of the local film festivals. He was intending to show at I said, yeah, let's let's do this. And it's gonna be compensation. He's like, it's going to be challenging but it's be good for your portfolio. Would you consider it? I said, yeah, I'm not. That's right. Make a bunch of money, if I can help you with. Let's see what I can do. And I had pretty good luck, illustration software, Adobe software programs, I could do pretty decent work, give that to him. He wants a winning a bunch of awards at different film festivals, and he was kind of giving me. No, you know, give me emails about what's going on as I could. This is great. This is just what I was hoping for you. And then I think I lived right by Washington, DC years. After I did that for him, he emails or calls. He says, hey, I'm going to be in town for a film fest. They're actually installing this film in like the Asian American contemporary filmography section of the Library of Congress and they want to embed the film. They also want to embed the poster since that's part of the total creative package, they're doing like they're installing it, and they're doing a film screening, why don't you come? I never expected any of those things to be in one conversation, let alone for that to be to me to like, hey, you want to come to the screening? So, that's how it happened. A curator at the Library of Congress, you know, open to the session, the director got to speak about it. She screened the movie. There was other Asian American films that were screened that same day. That's why a little bit of my artwork that's attached to this very wonderful. indie film is somewhere sitting in the Library of Congress.

S2

Speaker 2

40:47

That is outstanding and I could not have remotely guessed any of that story at all. I'm staring at, you know, it's unfortunate that this isn't a visual medium as I'm staring at the staring at the poster right now and just the phone self, two thousand, two Thousand Eleven. So I imagine this is something that I'm gonna, definitely, definitely try to try to make sure that I get to watch. Sometime soon. I'm glad I waited this long to learn this. I think this was a proper  venue for me to finally get the answer to that to that question. Really, really, really cool. And I might steal that when I play two truths and a lie and use it as my lie, because now I have the background story that will sound very truthful when I completely make that up and, and try to win that.

Yeah I'm gonna have I'm gonna have this recorded. I'm going to go through the notes committed to memory and crush that game. Sir an absolute pleasure. I at like I said, a wonderful reason to to reconnect and I know as The New Normal starts. And and I know Fusemachines gonna be opening up some of our offices reopening and kind of re-entering back into kind of office space in New York. You can be reasons for me to kind of be in your hood, and I can't remember what the count was, but I definitely owe you several drinks and I'll go, I'll check my notes and make sure that I bet that I pay up in full. And, and hopefully, we can do this next conversation in person

S1

Speaker 1

42:31

That will be wonderful. It was such a pleasure to reconnect and, you know, let's hope that our paths crossed very soon.

S2

Speaker 2

42:37

Yeah, appreciate it. And we'll again, thanks for your time.

S1

Speaker 1

Share42:39

Okay my friend. All the best.